In the 2007 “Beware of Global Warming Extremists” commentary, author Peter B. cherry picked sources to refute Global Warming by referring to "The Great Global Warming Swindle" which purportedly includes naysayers the likes of MIT scientist Richard Lintzen , NASA, The International Artic Research Center and other organizations and institutions.
Ironically Peter just passed on more disinformation that appeals to those who want to refute climate change/global warming.
Why doesn’t Peter make some of the necessary updates and corrections? Peter evidently hasn’t and won’t. So, we will.
FAIR wrote in 2004 before Peter's commentary, “Despite the consistent assertions of the United Nations-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that human activities have had a "discernible" influence on the global climate and that global warming is a serious problem that must be addressed immediately, "he said/she said" reporting has allowed a small group of global warming skeptics to have their views greatly amplified."
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1978
Peter amplifies the skeptics by referring to the film made by Martin Durkin, “The Great Global Warming Swindle, “saying it refutes the current disinformation about Global Warming.
Peter said the film “features expert after expert in the fields of climatology, oceanography, biogeography, meteorology,... from reputable institutions,” et al.
The problem is Peter neglected to use verified sources to corroborate the film's assertions. According to SourceWatch the movie Peter referred to is more propaganda than science. It’s documented that the director, Martin Durkin mislead interviewees and distorted and edited their contributions:
1. "The Great Global Warming Swindle" film's writer and director, Martin Durkin, believes that "global warming is a hoax foisted upon an unsuspecting public by conspiratorial environmentalists," reported The Age in June 2007. Durkin previously made the anti-environmental film "Against Nature," which Britain's Channel 4 had to issue a public apology for, "because it misled interviewees and distorted the editing of their contributions."
"Oceanographer Carl Wunsch "complained he had been misled" with regard to "The Great Global Warming Swindle." He claimed that his interview "had been edited to look as though he was dismissing human-caused climate change." [2]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swin...
2. NASA/Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Columbia Center for Climate Systems Research, 2800 Broadway, New York, New York 10025, USA et al..
Attributing physical and biological impacts to anthropogenic climate change
Cynthia Rosenzweig1, David Karoly2, Marta Vicarelli1, Peter Neofotis1, Qigang Wu3, Gino Casassa4, Annette Menzel5, Terry L. Root6, Nicole Estrella5, Bernard Seguin7, Piotr Tryjanowski8, Chunzhen Liu9, Samuel Rawlins10 & Anton Imeson11
1.NASA/Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Columbia Center for Climate Systems Research, 2800 Broadway, New York, New York 10025, USA
2.School of Earth Sciences, University of Melbourne, Victoria 3010, Australia
3.School of Meteorology, University of Oklahoma, 100 East Boyd Street, Norman, Oklahoma 73019, USA
4.Centro de Estudios Científicos, Avenida Arturo Prat 514, Casilla 1469, Valdivia, Chile
5.Center of Life and Food Sciences Weihenstephan, Technical University of Munich, Am Hochanger 13, 85 354 Freising, Germany
6.Stanford University, Center for Environmental Science and Policy, Stanford, California 94305, USA
7.INRA Unité Agroclim, Site Agroparc, domaine Saint-Paul, F-84914 Avignon Cedex 9, France
8.Department of Behavioural Ecology, Institute of Environmental Biology, Adam Mickiewicz University, Umultowska 89, PL-61–614 Poznan, Poland
9.China Water Information Center, Lane 2 Baiguang Road, Beijing 100761, China
10.Caribbean Epidemiology Center, 16–18 Jamaica Boulevard, Federation ParkPO Box 164, Port of Spain, Trinadad and Tobago
11.3D-Environmental Change, Curtiuslaan 14, 1851 AM, Heiloo, Netherlands
Here's the Abstract on Nature.com:
"Significant changes in physical and biological systems are occurring on all continents and in most oceans, with a concentration of available data in Europe and North America. Most of these changes are in the direction expected with warming temperature. Here we show that these changes in natural systems since at least 1970 are occurring in regions of observed temperature increases, and that these temperature increases at continental scales cannot be explained by natural climate variations alone. Given the conclusions from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Fourth Assessment Report that most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-twentieth century is very likely to be due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations, and furthermore that it is likely that there has been significant anthropogenic warming over the past 50 years averaged over each continent except Antarctica, we conclude that anthropogenic climate change is having a significant impact on physical and biological systems globally and in some continents."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v453/n7193/full/nature06937.html
3. MIT- Richard Lintzen is a contrarian according to colleagues and disputes the accepted IPCC view. He also has significant financial ties to Exxon Mobile.
Richard Lintzen linked to Exxon Mobile-
https://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0710c&L=ecolog-l&P=65
ExxonMobil links to Dr Richard Lindzen.
"Climate change deniers are having a ball lately. Dr Richard Lindzen does another opinion piece claiming that dissenting scientists are intimidated into silence: Climate of Fear: Global-warming alarmists intimidate dissenting scientists into silence."
"So how is it that we don't have more scientists speaking up about this junk science? It's my belief that many scientists have been cowed not merely by money but by
fear."
"So why is Dr Richard Lindzen, a professor of Atmospheric Sciences at MIT, being so brave and noble in his dissent? It turns out he has a dossier on ExxonSecrets.org which documents foundations he works for that receive funding from ExxonMobil. Ten years ago the guy was getting paid $2,500 a day to consult to the oil and coal industry. They got what they paid for, it is reported that he is a good climate scientist: Spinwatch: The global warming sceptics: Climate Change."
http://globalwarmingwatch.blogspot.com/2006/04/exxonmobil-links-to-dr-ri...
4. The International Arctic Research Centre-
Peter wrote, “No one is disputing that our climate is changing. But the theory that carbon dioxide emissions have any discernable effect on climate has always lacked solid scientific evidence. Yes, humans have an effect on climate, but it’s infinitesimally tiny compared with the vast natural forces which are constantly pushing global temperatures up and down.”
First of all Peter's comments are not varified with sources. Are these comments/opinions/ statements fact? We don’t know because they are unsourced. According to information on the IARC, there is an increase in carbon dioxide in the lower atmosphere. And it’s helping to create a cloud formation known as a “noctilucent” cloud. Noctilucent clouds are suspected of being a product of global warming caused by warming near the ground.
“High-altitude wisps known as noctilucent, or night-shining, clouds, like these over Alaska last June, are visible during summer months. Although they float 50 miles above the surface, noctilucent clouds seem to be affected by changing conditions near the ground. Global warming near the surface has cooled the upper atmosphere, and noctilucent clouds have become brighter, more numerous and more widespread. Once they could be seen only in the higher latitudes like Britain and Scandanavia. Now they can be seen as far south as Colorado and Virginia.”
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/04/23/science/20070424_CLOUDS_SLID...
"It is clear that these clouds are changing, a sign that a part of our atmosphere is changing and we do not understand how, why or what it means," stated AIM principal investigator James Russell III of Hampton University, Hampton, Va. "These observations suggest a connection with global change in the lower atmosphere and could represent an early warning that our Earth environment is being changed."
www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/aim/multimedia/first_view.html
“The clouds could serve as an indicator of climate change because an increase in carbon dioxide, which causes heating in the lower atmosphere, causes cooling in the upper atmosphere. Collins said the noctilucent clouds are a relatively new phenomenon. History indicates that humans first recorded their presence in the 19th century, he said. Satellite and ground-based data has been limited, he said, but it appears that the clouds have become more prevalent over time. A new satellite, Aeronomy of Ice in the Mesosphere, or AIM, was launched in April 2007 to observe clouds and their environment in the mesopause, Collins said scientists are looking forward to having more reliable data, which could contribute to a broader understanding of the upper atmosphere, noctilucent clouds and how both fit into the climate system. “
Read on there’s more”
http://www.uaf.edu/news/a_news/20070817155816.html
NASA wrote, “One reason for the recent spread of noctilucent clouds might be global warming. "Extreme cold is required to form ice in a dry environment like the mesosphere," says Thomas. Ironically, global warming helps. While greenhouse gases warm Earth's surface, they actually lower temperatures in the high atmosphere. Thomas notes that noctilucent clouds were first spotted during the Industrial Revolution--a time of rising greenhouse gas production.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/19feb_nlc.htm
The Aeronomy of Ice in the Mesosphere (AIM) mission will be the first satellite dedicated to studying this enigmatic phenomenon. Due to launch in late 2006, it should reveal whether the clouds are caused by global warming, as many scientists believe.
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn9228-mysterious-glowing-clouds-t...
Glowing clouds whose proliferation may be linked to climate change.
NASA launched the Aeronomy of Ice in the Mesosphere (AIM) satellite on 25 April on a mission to investigate "night-shining" or noctilucent clouds. These clouds float 80 kilometres above the ground and are made of tiny ice crystals. Because they are so high up, the Sun still reaches them and makes them glow after sunset and before sunrise, when the ground is in darkness.
The clouds have been observed since the 1800s, but in recent years they have brightened and grown more numerous. They were first observed above Earth's polar regions, but have now spread to latitudes as low as 40°. Some scientists suspect their proliferation is related to increasing greenhouse gases, which can actually cause the upper reaches of the atmosphere to cool.
Now, the AIM satellite has inaugurated a new era in noctilucent cloud research, obtaining its first views of these ghostly structures.
The satellite spotted its first noctilucent clouds on 25 May. Since then, the clouds have become more numerous and have spread to lower latitudes (see map at right of the clouds' distribution on 11 June).
Low temperatures AIM has observed the pattern of noctilucent clouds around the north pole rotating over time. Russell suspects this may be due to areas of especially low temperature moving around rather than the clouds themselves moving. Temperatures where the clouds form hover at about -140° C.
Some researchers suspect the increase in the clouds seen in recent years could be due to human activity. Carbon dioxide absorbs energy in the upper atmosphere as well as radiation leaving the Earth's surface and then reradiates it very efficiently.
About half of that energy returns to the Earth's surface, causing warming. But because the carbon dioxide helps radiate energy away from the upper atmosphere, there is a net cooling there.
Human activities"Temperature certainly is one plausible explanation for why we're seeing more of the clouds and at lower latitudes and brighter," AIM chief scientist James Russell III of Hampton University in Hampton, Virginia, US, told New Scientist.
He also points out that the amount of water vapour in the upper atmosphere has increased in the past 50 years, perhaps as a result of increased methane in the atmosphere from farming and other human activities. Methane can react with oxygen in the atmosphere to create water molecules."
http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=78908&keybol...
Peter also mentioned:
Pasteur Institute in Paris
Danish National Space Center
Universities of Winnipeg, Ottawa, London, Jerusalem, Alabama and Virginia.
There are no available citations for the remaining three sources that we could find as of today 7-21-08:


Vamma Again you attack. You...
Back to page topVamma
Again you attack. You make an accusation to Peter B. stating "you that neglected to use verified sources to corroborate ...". You don't do this. You're a hypocrite. You've taken it upon yourself to make up the rules of debate.
In the world according to Vamma, If Vamma agrees with a source then it's automatically "verified." If Vamma disagrees with a source then it's "propaganda". In Vamma's world, anything Vamma disagrees with is labeled partisan and biased.
If Vamma agrees with something then Vamma provides a "link' and it becomes the indisputable truth. This time Vamma's link is Sourcewatch.org. Sourcewatch operates in much the same fashion as Wikipedia, the bulk of its content is written by a "community of writers" who are mainly unknown and anonymous to readers. Even more so than Wikipedia, it's loaded with opinion and a left-wing slant. The Homepage proclaims, "This encyclopedia is written by people like you, so jump in." As far as I know, Vamma is an aspiring contributor to SourceWatch. He could be citing himself.
Vamma also makes the attack that Peter B. was cherry-picking his sources. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. Just as Al Gore tried to cherry-pick voted in Florida in 2000, the cherry-picking of sources is at the heart every Vamma post.
Source Viability First of...
Back to page topSource Viability
First of all I'm amazed that Peter doesn't speak up for himself. Why are you defending him? The point: why does he need to be defended? Because he put out a commentary that was highly opinionated, not factual, and those who read it cited him for his lack of references, so he added them later. The links he added were highly suspect because they provide more opinion and circumstantial info. He seemingly can't refute the newest findings and either can you, so you are again ranting on.
Wikipedia comes with a disclaimer that says the information may not be verifiable, Sourcewatch does not.
The point is not that one source is better or not, or that I agree or not, but how accurate the information is.
The sources Peter uses are often: Republican web site, opinion sites and or sites that do not give the true picture of the person's reasons for eschewing global warming.
Most of them have funded by big oil and are involved in some capacity with Exxon.
Also many of the sources are not primary: they give us someone else's spin, and they are not providing us with the totality we need to discern whether or not the information is reliable.
Vamma: I was not defending...
Back to page topVamma:
I was not defending Peter B. I was challenging your tactics.
Peter B. doesn't need anyone to defend him. He has successfully debated you and proven you wrong time and time again. If Elizabeth Fry Ellet were here today, I know she would agree that Peter has an undefeated record againts Vamma in the blogosphere.
Regarding Wikipedia and Sourcewatch: I've never seen a general disclaimer on Wikipeida that information may not be verifiable. If it's there, good. If Sourcewatch doesn't offer disclaimer that its informatin is not verifiable, they should.
As stated before, Source watch operates in much the same way that Wikipedia does. Since Vamma denies this, I offer the following admission from the Sourcewatch pages ... "SourceWatch policy is taken, by and large, from the policies of Wikipedia, which have been formulated by habit and consensus. Hence, the statements on this page and pages adjoining it are intended for the most part to be descriptive of existing community norms that have developed over time. Issues are still formulated and debated on talk pages and elsewhere."
For the apparent purpose of proving credibilty, Sourcewatch offers readers the fact that they have a paid editor on staff. In fact Sourcewatch has a paid part-time editor on staff. His name is Bob Burton, and according to Sourcewatch, he is a freelance journalist based in Hobart, Australia. Even the Eden Prairie new has more than a single part-time editor on staff.
Time to check Vamma's...
Back to page topTime to check Vamma's Facts
Vamma: You defended your use of Sourcewatch.org by claiming it was somehow a more reliable than Wikipedia. You stated that Wikipedia provides a disclaimer which says that much of its information is not "verifiable."
Question for Vamma: Why have you on several occasions over the recent month used Wikipedia as a source in your blogs? For example, Vamma has written "According to Wikipedia, “the term framing refers to an inevitable process of selective influence over the individual's perception of the meanings attributed to words or phrases. Framing defines the packaging of an element of rhetoric in such a way as to encourage certain interpretations and to discourage others. The mass-media or specific political or social movements or organizations may establish media frames.” "
I honestly can't tell you what that means, but I do see signs of it in most everything Vamma writes.
Vamma, even for you that must be the smoking gun which proves that your tactics of providing "sources" has been a fraud. You admit that Wikipedia is not a "verifiable" source, yet you use it to confuse readers. It's all about selling your snake-oil.
Vamma obviously has some talent when it comes to creative writing. Vamma hasn't shown an abiltity to tell the truth. I've heard there is a local group of writers that meet to have coffee and share poetry and short stories. It would be perfect for Vamma. There would no longer be a need to provide sources and therefore, no longer to for Vamma to pretend reliable sources exist. Again, it would be a perfect fit for Vamma,
Apples/ Apples Comparison? I...
Back to page topApples/ Apples Comparison?
I think not!
I used Wikipedia to fact check Comic Central too and other non-essential entities; I certainly wouldn't use it to provide the lastest on Climage Change. I'd go directly to Primary Sources. Perhaps this is too subtle for you to comprehend.
I often use multiple sources on the blog, both pro and con, something you failed to point out. I've also made updates to things that have changed.
There is no comparable snake oil salesman, Peter wins the prize for a disreputable piece that at the very least should be updated to reflect some of the new findings.
Or is it that he wants to continue to deceive readers with information that's a year old and in no longer up to date, yes.
Switching the attack away from him and on to me is a lame tactic. But proving his point with updated information would be constructive. You both have failed to take this to a higher level.
Vamma, No one is attacking...
Back to page topVamma,
No one is attacking you. Your tactics are being challenged. It is one thing to base your opinions on what you read at Sourcewatch or Wikipedia, but when use those sources for your "citations", you are no longer credible.
Millions of people visit Wikipedia for various reasons. Typically, they don't rely on it as a "source" to reinforce their preconceived notions. A credible person wouldn't do this.
If you feel that "attack" is being diverted away from Peter B. and towards you, does that mean you admit to "attacking" Peter?
Wiki-Feud ...... To Vamma,...
Back to page topWiki-Feud ......
To Vamma, all reasonable people, and others:
Vamma has recently defended the use of Wikipedia as a verifiable source to support an extremist view of global warming. Most people would agree that using Wikipedia as a source isn't a good idea. The practice of using as a source, on-line sites such as Wikipedia and Sourcewatch fosters an environment that encourages the promotion of junk-science and urban myth. Wikipedia and Sourcewatch rely on "citizen" editors. (You might be wondering, citizens of what?)
I present all readers proof by example. The following is a link to Wikipedia that illustrates the some obvious drawbacks to having "citizen" editors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:KMSP-TV
The article-discussion was written in regards our home town TV station KMSP channel 9, the Fox network affiliate. It doesn't tell us much about channel 9. Most of what you will read is back and forth arguments and nit-picking among Wikipedia "citizen" editors. It's Wiki-funny and shows what happens when the inmates are running the asylum.
I extracted the article on the morning of 07/28/2008. Most of the bickering among editors is dated more than a year ago. It should still be there if you choose to read it. If it changes suddenly for some reason, I could post the entire article-discussion as it existed at the time of extraction.
However ironic, is it hypocritical to use Wikipedia to refute Wikipedia? No, it is proof by example. When Bill Clinton was impeached, it was his perjurious statements that congress relied on.
This reminds me of an...
Back to page topThis reminds me of an article in The Onion, "sourced by Wikipedia," about the United States' 750th birthday:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50902
(Karla Wennerstrom is the editor of the Eden Prairie News. She can be reached at editor@edenprairienews.com.)
Wiki or Wiki not That's not...
Back to page topWiki or Wiki not
That's not the point.
Peter's "Global Warming" opponents have ties to oil and tobacco disinformation campaigns.
WIKI is not a reliable source for updated global warming information, but it's only one of many sources to find out about scientists involved in a disinformation campaign. See links below.
So if you are refuting the information I presented on scientists involved in a disinformation campaign WIKI is a pea in a sea of sources..
I wonder why you don't provide more sourced information on why someone like Richard Lindzen (MIT) is right about Global Warming? Because there are scads of sources that indicate his involvment in a disinformation campaign. See below:
Peter failed to cite his involvement with big oil in his commentary.
There is more than one source which would indicate that many of these scientists are biased and have strong views against global warming because of their affiliations.
So, that one source or lack of isn't the only issue. The issue is he failed to identify the relationship they have with big oil. EMPHASIS added!
Let's take Richard Lindzen who has a long resume of support including tobacco companies and oil companies: you can find these links all over the internet. There's a huge list that ties him to big tobacco and oil.
So WIKI or WIKI not, it's a moot point.
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=17
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/ScienceCop/comment.html?entrynum=36&tst...
http://www.greyfalcon.net/lindzen.png
http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/2025528294-8299.html
http://homepage.mac.com/herinst/sbeder/ecologist2.html#fn12
http://www.scientific-alliance.com/news_archives/climate/newclimatepub.h...
http://risingtide.org.uk/pages/voices/hall_shame.htm
The really fascinating discussion is why tobacco should be involved in the disinformation campaign about global warming with oil?
Okay, let's independently research this and come back and both do a piece on it. One week from today.
Mine will be on why the alliance between the two, oil and tobacco makes sense, and yours will be why it doesn't or something to that effect.
Are you game?
Fight climate change with...
Back to page topFight climate change with tax not target, say economists
"The European Union should fight climate change with a broad-based carbon tax rather than by setting precise targets for the use of biofuels and renewable energy, according to a team of British economists.
Europe Economics, a London-based consultancy, says biofuels targets amount to "a form of state support for an environmentally and economically harmful activity designed to consolidate existing price support mechanisms for vested interest groups, most notably farmers".
The European Commission on Wednesday will present a plan for tackling climate change that aims to cut greenhouse gas emissions in the EU by 20 per cent of their 1990 levels by 2020.
The Commission's proposal that biofuels should account for 10 per cent of road transport fuels has been questioned in many quarters, including by the Joint Research Centre, the Commission's in-house science institute.
According to Europe Economics, the target would lead to annual subsidies to the biofuels industry of at least €11bn ($16bn, £8bn) and possibly as much as €23bn by 2020. This compares with the €40bn that the EU now spends each year on its Common Agricultural Policy.
"It is clear that a European biofuel industry cannot be viable without political support by means of tariffs and very high levels of subsidy," the economists say.
The study was commissioned by Open Europe, a UK think-tank campaigning for a loosely structured, economically liberal EU.
The economists recommend that governments introduce tax breaks for energy-efficient products, a step already under consideration in the UK and France. The EU could play its part by reducing import duties.
The EU imposes a 66 per cent tariff on low-energy light bulbs from China, Pakistan, the Philippines and Vietnam, partly - the report suggests - because of protectionist lobbying from Osram, the German manufacturer owned by Siemens. Without the import duty and value-added-tax, the cost of an imported energy-efficient 60 watt bulb in the UK would be 66p ($1.29, €0.88) instead of £4, the report estimates.
Cycling to work could be encouraged by removing tariffs and VAT from standard high-quality imported bicycles, slashing their cost to £80 from £250.
"Other green products which should be subject to similar tax and tariff incentives include insulation, condensing boilers, water management systems and heat exchangers," the economists say.
They are highly critical of the EU's carbon emissions trading scheme, saying the allocation of free permits has become "a vehicle for delivering covert industrial subsidies to politically favoured industries on a truly epic scale". They calculate that power generators in the EU have netted €6bn-€8bn in windfall profits since the launch of the ETS in 2005.
"We consider that the most cost-effective way of reducing carbon emissions is to introduce an economy-wide carbon price, and that the best way of doing this would be to abandon the ETS and to tax the consumption of primary fuels in proportion to their carbon content," the economists say."
Copyright Financial Times 2008
Redirect Link
http://www.scientific-alliance.com/news_archives/climate/newclimatepub.h...
To this link:
http://www.scientific-alliance.org/
Wiki Fiction or Wiki...
Back to page topWiki Fiction or Wiki Fact?
That is the question.
Vamma has presented Wikipedia has a credible source. When called out on this, Vamma defended the use of Wikipedia. Vamma was presented with proof that the information provided on Wikipedia is not reliable. Now Vamma responds that Wiki is not the point.
Vamma flip-flops more than a large-mouth bass inside of a cheap aluminum fishing boat.
The issue of Vamma's tactics is still alive and well. Vamma throws out extremist opinions and pretends to back them up with links to unreliable sources such as Wikipedia and Source watch.
Vamma's game is to use partisans links to further a facade of crediblility: For example, Vamma continues to cite sources such as:
climatehotmap.org, guardian.co.uk, exxonsecrets.org, wunderground.com/blog, and Wikipedia's sister-site, sourcewatch.org.
That is only a small example of the radical and extreme-partisan "proof" that Vamma offers. Vamma has admitted to attacking others over the sources they use. If Vamma doesn't like what someone says, then their sources are labeled as "suspect" and "not verifiable."
Should readers wish to examine these sources for themselves, I encourage them to do so.
If Vamma wants to pretend any of the above sources are either reliable or non-partisan I'm fully prepared to shoot them down one by one.
And thank you to to Karla for the link to "The Onion" spoof on Wikipedia.
FACTS DON'T RANT Bigfoot,...
Back to page topFACTS DON'T RANT
Bigfoot, Karla requested the discussion not descend into a deconstructive back and forth.
So, I'm going to pick this up from the floor where you left it, on one more time, and than I will not respond to you directly again. With Empahsis!
Because your/Peter's position is indefensible, you continue your illogical rant that reveals Peter's support of the "junk science" snowjob against global warming.
Why would anyone intentionally have the need to repeat my name in every sentence at least, on one count, four times? Pretty amusing!
It certainly does not add to a constructive discussion, You've made the point that this isn't really about finding out the BIG FACTS, it's purely meant to be an antagonistic reproach, because you have not provided information that would refute the ties between industry and scientists who accept pay-back for their pro-tobacco and pro-oil industry assertions.
It does not bring the discussion to a higher level. Adolescents may enjoy this kind of thing, but adults generally find it a distraction to the discussion of the issues and a distraction from explaining why Peter failed to provide anything that would have given readers a more honest assessment. You can't have an honest discussion about the people he referenced without revealing their ties.. Peter failed to do that.
Let the facts speak for themselves: the whole "junk science" misinformation campaign is what Peter is about. Peter evidently needs you to defend that fact and him.
Here'a link to documents that incriminate Richard Lindzen who has been involved in a disinformation campaign about the effect of tobacco use.
The URL below contains links that have tobacco industry documents with Lindzen quotes that debunk the science which determined a causal relationship between environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer, second hand smoke, etc.
http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/2046455954-5967.p11-20.html?pattern=richa...
In document after document Lindzen is quoted in articles which question the health hazards of ETS.
http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/2046768306-8353.p31-40.html?pattern=richa...
The point being Lindzen was being paid off by big tobacco; he was not on the side of science when it came to ETS. He is not on the side of the scientific findings concerning Global Warming. He is taking money from these industries to defend their positions with arguments against scientific findings.
This is why Peter deceived and failed to be an honest emissary for scientific discovery.
Vamma, Vamma, Vamma,...
Back to page topVamma, Vamma, Vamma, Vamma,
I did not use your name four times in a sentence. I did use your name four times in a paragraph. I was trying to be gender-neutral in addressing you, as I don't if you have an innie or an outie. I did think of using names other than Vamma, such as "The Old Hippie" or "Al Gore Wanna-be."
If your gripe is that I'm "defending Peter", I'll say three things 1) I'm not defending Peter, I'm challenging your tactics in using partisan sources to support your partisan position. 2) Peter can defend himself. 3) This blog/comment feature is available to anyone (subject to editorial rules) and who are you attack someone on the basis that you think they "defend" Peter?
More partisan links? tobaccodocuments.org? Again, you offer no credibility.
Boring and counting... Okay...
Back to page topBoring and counting...
Okay it's obvoius repeating my name is part of the antagonism you feel because I don't agree with you or Peter. You're exhibing the quintessential partisan attack mode; it's silly and a waste of everyone's time.
Okay so you can repeat my name, what's the point? And you continue to personally attack by name-calling.
Really, you're only making yourself look less credible. Instead of coming up with information to prove your point, you continue to make yourself and Peter look bad.
You have not come back and defended your position. Where's the sourced comeback to why big oil and big tobacco have not contributed to a campaign to eliminate scientific findings? Mine is already up. Where's yours?
Peter can't defend himself and hasn't. Neither have you. If you call presenting reliable counter information that conflicts with Peter's assertions partisan, you're deluding yourself, no one else.
Tobacco documents URL provides articles and PR that emanate from the tobacco industry. What's partisan about that. Their own information was used to further indict them. (I guess you didn't get that.)
Are you suggesting that NASA and the IPCC are partisan organizations?
Peter did not present a balanced picture for readers; he deceived them. He has yet to come back and show me why all the scientists and organizations he has named are not affiliated or have not received funding from special interest groups such as big oil and big tobacco.
You've brought the back and forth to its lowest demonination. Unless you can offer something we can actually discuss, why continue to make yourself look like partisan attacker?
I recommend you take a good look at the scientific facts unmarred by either left or right slants. And than come back and try to have a discussion.
I would welcome it.
Less than 24 hours after...
Back to page topLess than 24 hours after promising "I will not respond to you directly again. With Emphasis!", Vamma does another John Kerry style flip-flop.
Is the IPCC partisan? Absolutely. The United Nations does have a clear governance and funding role with respect to the IPCC. By its very nature, the U.N. is a partisan body.
Is NASA partisan? At times they are. Are they completely non-partisan? No. Is Vamma prepared to claim that NASA's decisions have never been infuenced by politics?
NASA itself is a large governmental bureaucracy that depends on partisan legislators to allocate tax dollars to feed its hungry appetite. While some members of congress may be interested in the truth, others are expecting something to support the same junk science that Al Gore dubbed an "inconvenient truth.
And it doesn't need to be pointed out that NASA has been wrong in the past, some of their mistakes have been catastrophic.
Vamma, the larger question that you have yet to answer is why you continue to rely on partisan sources such as tobaccodocuments.org, sourcewatch.org, and wikipedia.org. It's ironic that one would use something they read on Wikipedia to attack the sources of another. It's hypocritical, for someone who repeatedly cites biased websites, to preach a code of conduct to others.
And Vamma, did you figure out the difference between a paragraph and a sentence yet?
Can't Get Around Truth What...
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What you've offered still does not address the problem with Peter's commentary: are these scientists affiliated with big oil/ big tobacco's disinformation campaign or not? Answer the question.
Also, you, nor Peter have not come forward and admitted that the information Peter presented is outdated.
Why would anyone continue to hit up an inactive, outdated commentary, why doesn't Peter change it to reflect a more accurate account of what the current science reflects.?
It's clear that he doesn't want an accurate telling of what's happening in climate change research. You both want to continue to deceive the public by demeaning the messenger.
Peter should come forward and answer the question: do the scientists and organizations he sourced have affiliations with big tobacco and big oil, in other words were they funded by them to help spread their disinformation campaign?
If Peter says no, he will by lying. That's right he will be outright lying.
The IPCC is not funded by big tobacco and big oil. NASA is not funded by big tobacco and big oil to spread a disinformation campaign. They are imperfect organizations, but they don't have an agenda that's perscribed by two extremely heavy handed, self interested industries who are out to spread confusion and disbelief so they can continue to sell their products.
I'm much more interested in pursuing constructive ends for everyone's benefit: I want to know the truth, as I'm sure many others do. I am not interested in supporting anyone's agenda, partisan, or otherwise, Republican or Democrat.
And when the science comes out to disprove the most current findings, I'll be the first one to print it. Unlike Peter, I am not concealing any motivation other than to try to report the latest information.
Peter is all about spreading anti-climate change dogma, which is backed up by organizations and scientists who take big industry pay-offs. That makes Peter a part of the problem: he's a disinformation peddler with a very particlar agenda.